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Talk:Lion Ushiromiya
About Sayo's appearance We all know that Lion has long blonde hair tied in a ponytail and has gray eyes, but how is it that Sayo, being the same person as Lion in a different reality, have an appearance akin to Shannon, albeit her brown eyes? Shouldn't Sayo retain her appearance from Requiem's manga, i.e, have long, blonde hair? Just because her reality is different from Lion's, doesn't mean she should have different a different hair or eye colour? Are we supposed to readily accept that Sayo was wearing a ginger-blonde wig while masquerading as Beatrice?! They're ultimately the same person and SHOULD POSSESS THE SAME PHYSICAL FEATURES, regardless of belonging to alternate fragments. Even though the VNs are really good, Ireally feel as though Ryukishi 07 and the rest of 07th Expansion have totally forgotten to address this discrepancy, which is totally not fair to us, who are being told that the greatest mystery of the series revolves around Sayo. Kurumizawa Yuzuru (talk) 15:43, December 16, 2014 (UTC) Trivia Kinzo could have raped male Beatrice as well (if we consider how much he loved her). Also Bern never said that Kinzo raped Lion, only made a mistake, like with his daughter. And rape in this case was more like a result of his mistake. Besides in that moment Bernkastel was just teasing Lion. - Anon33 18:01, May 15, 2012 (UTC) The Angel of 17 years I always thought the trivia thing meant that Lion's presence in this tip without other androgynous characters is suspicious and might be a hint or something? However yeah, right now with translation it doesn't seem to be like that. -Anon33 (talk) 21:32, July 27, 2012 (UTC) My question is: ¿when does he appears in the anime? Once Deen or another studio will make a Chiru adaptation. -Anon33 (talk) 21:32, July 27, 2012 (UTC) Pronouns Since it has been confirmed that Lion is male hould we edit the page to reflect that or leave as is? DirkingtonStrider (talk) 23:36, April 16, 2014 (UTC) I don't think we really have to. At least for now. -Anon33 (talk) Where was Lion's gender confirmed? 22:16, July 27, 2014 (UTC)Lucid Lion's gender Can we please not use "he" pronouns in the page? Even if Lion is DMAB (designated male at birth), they actively dodge questions about gender, and are referred to entirely neutrally in both the japanese text and the english translation. As a trans person myself who doesn't align with the gender binary, it's actually really inappropriate to use the incorrect pronouns for them. I really just do not see the point of using "he" for Lion when they clearly don't identify male. Additionally, as I recall the page previously used singular they throughout without any problems. 20:05, June 2, 2014 (UTC) Lion is written as male(he is referred to as "seinen" and "boccan" in the original japanese, to which he normally responds and considers 'cooking' as something people of his gender don't usually do), so I think we should leave that. And we don't have a clear answer behind Lion refusing to reveal his gender completely besides the point of "gender question" being somewhat important to Sayo to make people think about it deeper. Also, if we were to change Lion, we'd have to change Sayo as well. -Anon33 (talk) 12:06, June 3, 2014 (UTC) I don't care how long ago the past two comments were, I really just want to make it clear that using he/him pronouns for Lion is completely missing the point. (Also a trans person speaking here.) The reason Lion refuses to answer the "gender question" is a direct jab at readers who want to place them into one gender box or the other. Lion is written neutrally, the translators making it a point to keep all talk regarding them free of gendering, while Sayo clearly was raised as and identifies as female (excluding her Kanon persona.) It's pretty disrespectful to imply that if the child never suffered the injuries Sayo did, they would grow up identifying completely as male, because that reeks of gender essentialism and disregards the often innate nature of being trans. You don't have to change Sayo at all; Sayo is what she is. But please don't ignore the deliberate gender-neutral coding w/r/t Lion. It's not cool. ( 07:03, May 6, 2015 (UTC)) The "seinen" part comes from "kouseinen" (好青年), which, while often used to refer to males, is not strictly a male term. To quote the Pixiv article on them: "Although they're written with the term "kouseinen", since you would usually use "koushounen" to use for both males and females, normally you would expect it to refer to them being male, but since their gender in the main work is unclear, it's unknown whether 'kouseinen' is used in the sense to refer to them as a man." That is to say, it's not strictly a masculine term. Given that Japanese fan materials seem to maintain the gender-neutral stance, I think it's way too far to assert that Lion's written as male, even if the manga heavily implies it. So I advise switching back to gender-neutral pronouns...would it be okay to do this now without starting an edit war? 04:35, October 12, 2015 (UTC) It's baffling to me that this discussion happened 3 years ago and the page once again has male pronouns. The fact that Lion responds to some masculine-coded terms doesn't mean that they identify as a man - actual non-binary people often do use or respond to some gendered terms, depending on which ones they're used to, or which ones they're comfortable with, or even which ones they've just accepted that people are going to use even if they'd rather not. It doesn't actually mean that's how they identify. When it comes down to it, someone's gender identity doesn't fundamentally change because of an injury that happens to them - there are a lot of real life examples, for instance of genital mutilation of intersex people (or people who have suffered some form of injury to their genitalia), that actually prove this. So it doesn't even make sense to assert that Lion is male when the story itself makes no attempt to assert that, and also shows us versions of this character from alternate realities who definitely don't identify as or want to be male, even though they were seemingly assigned male at birth. The justification doesn't even make sense - "there are hints that Lion is male" != "Lion is canonically male", and it's disrespectful to the work, the author, the character, and actual real trans people, to make that appear to be a definitive, objective fact. It's still an interpretation. Hell, it's not even consistent with this Wiki, which puts Zepar and Furfur in the "androgynous" category despite, again, there being "hints" as to which is which. Lion definitely belongs in the same category. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and interpretations of the character, so people are free to interpret Lion as a boy. But the article should be true to the deliberate ambiguity, it's a question that wasn't supposed to have a definitive answer. 12:56, November 8, 2018 (UTC)